Original Post
An Extensive Guide to The Principles of Realistic Throws
If you've ever seen one of my threads on the replay board, you know realistic replays are my focus and forté...partly cause I suck at madmans and the like. But in any case, realistic throws and slams are without doubt my favorite things to do. I've decided to include some general principles/guidelines I've come up with to help those who want to create realistic throws.
Getting Started
Throws are extremely fun to do almost no matter what the rules are. The only thing I'd emphatically suggest is to play with dismemberments OFF. It takes away from the realism big time. Other than that, disqualifications on or off, fractures on or off, dojo size, etc. are all up to you.
1. Use Of A Mod
Some people consider using mods cheating, and so will only play in the classic environment. True, mods sometimes do make it easier, but not so with realism. The physics and gravity in the classic mod simply are not conducive to real-looking throws. It's far too easy to pick Uke up in classic, and much too hard to slam him with any power. Because of this, I'd recommend using sambo mod (my personal choice) or capoeira mod. Both have increased gravity which feels more realistic, but capoeira gives you increased strength to compensate. Sambo's strength is the same as classic Toribash, so you might be a little weaker than you're used to with the high gravity. Capoeria on the other hand beefs up leg strength big time, but upper body is even weaker than normal. It comes down to personal preference which one you use, try them both out! Both mods are included as attachments to this post.
2. Determine Your Style
Figuring out what you want to create is the first step to making a good throw. Having an extremely precise mental image of what you want to create is often a bad thing, but knowing what principles of movement you want to follow will help you succeed. I tend to categorize the throws I do in Toribash into either Judo or Wrestling (obviously there are more categories than this, but these are the general ones).
Judo throws or sweeps mainly involve circular motions both in the technique and how the throw looks, and use Uke's weight to throw him instead of relying on your character's strength. Sacrifice throws are a prime example of this, putting yourself at a disadvantage momentum-wise by leaning back, in order to lower your center of gravity and use your lower fulcrum point to flip Uke over in a circular motion.
Wrestling throws on the other hand, usually involve a brute strength pickup and are more focused on lifting Uke high in order to combine your character's strength and gravity to cause damage on the slam. Suplexes are a good example of this principle, getting a lock on Uke's body to prevent resistance, lowering the center of gravity and using the legs and arms to lift up, and then slamming Uke with the combined forces of your character's body weight, strength, and the pull of gravity.
Although these two styles are not mutually exclusive, they do end up producing distinctly different-looking throws.
Principles of Throwing
1. Center of Gravity
You'll notice that in the explanations above of both a typical Judo and Wrestling throw, lowering your center of gravity below Uke's was a key point to a good throw. Although in classic Toribash a single arm is enough to lift Uke, it's much harder to get a good pickup in sambo or capoeira mod. The key to this, which leads into the second point, is to lower your center of gravity below Uke's by contracting knees/hips/abs or any other joint you can find that works.
2. Use Your Whole Body
Whether you're trying to perform a jumping piledriver or a simple leg trip, it's important to use your whole body. Lifting Uke up is much easier when you extend your knees and ankles from a contracted state rather than simply grabbing on, raising your shoulders, and hoping for the best (more on this in point #4). Likewise, if you're trying to do a foot sweep, you'll be much more likely to sweep Uke's leg or legs out from under him if you pull his upper body towards the direction of your foot sweep to disrupt his balance. In addition to adding legs to arm lifts and vice versa, just as in striking, adding ab movement, chest rotation, even wrist contractions/extensions can add a surprising amount of power to any one move.
3.A. (Judo) Using Push-Pull
Because Judo motions are circular, you generally need to have opposing motions when doing a Judo throw. As illustrated below:
Here's the start of a throw after the setup that I call Judo Wheel. Notice the right arm raised and extended, left arm lowered and contracted.
Nearly the same picture, but with both pecs extended to further pull Uke off balance (Principle #2).
Now I start to rotate Uke using a push-off with my leg in conjunction with chest rotation (Principle #2).
Here's where the push-pull starts. After setting up the motion by starting in the opposite position, I start to pull down and contract with the right arm while raising the left arm and contracting left pecs. This while continuing to push off with the legs and rotate the chest.
This shows how effective the push-pull can be. In just 20 frames/2 turns, by pulling down and in with the right arm and pushing up and out (extending) with the left arm, I have completely inverted Uke and put him head down on the mat.
Ending with a slam outside of the ring area.
3.B. Wrestling The Proper Pick-Up
Because Uke is basically a scarecrow, where exactly you grab him matters less than you might think in terms of the lift. As long as it's on the body between the elbows, knees, and neck, you'll most likely be able to pick Uke up. Your grab position might have an impact on the actual slam, but that will depend on what kind of throw you're doing. In any case, once you've grabbed onto Uke (2-handed grab is best for wrestling style), this is a simple and effective pickup.
Starting by lowering my center of gravity below Uke's and grabbing under the arms.
Starting the lift by extending hips and abs, and contracting arms to pull him off balance.
Once he's off balance, I continue extending hips and start the key part of the lift: The combination of contracting elbows, extending pecs, lowering shoulders, and extending wrists. As mentioned near the beginning of this section, the wrist extension adds a surprising amount of extra power.
Continuing the motion from the picture above and adding ankle extension, Uke continues to lift off his feet.
Uke is now off the ground, and completely under my control, as I arch backwards for the suplex.
You can guess what happens next.
4. Reverse Intuition
Maybe I'm just stupid, but lowering the shoulders and contracting the elbows didn't first occur to me as an effective way to lift Uke. Getting the throw you want in Toribash is often counter-intuitive, in that a certain motion often doesn't produce the effect you thought it would. For example, say you start with the noob opener: Grabby hands, clap together. Now you're grabbing Uke's arms between the elbow and shoulder. What will happen if you then rotate your chest to the right?
If you guessed that you'd stay still and Uke would be pulled to the right, congratulations, you're just as stupid as I am! If you thought Uke would stay stationary and you would turn to the right, you're smarter...but still half wrong. In fact, if you grab onto Uke and just rotate your chest, your lower body will turn in the opposite direction your chest is turning. The effect of any one movement while you're holding onto Uke is very different than when you do it unencumbered. It makes sense once you get it, but it takes some getting used to to realize that raising your shoulder will pull both Uke and you forward and down, while lowering a shoulder will lift up Uke and cause you to lean back. Until you're used to it, the solution is often to do the exact opposite of what you think you should do next. The most important point is that even when you're used to it, hitting "b" on your keyboard will will let see both ghosts and their interaction with each other, and this will cut down on your mistakes drastically.
5. Distance During Throws
This is a minor point, but still an important once. If you've ever seen a real-life suplex for example, you'll notice the suplex-er has to be almost body-to-body with the suplex-ee in order for it to work. This is not the case in Toribash. In fact, being that close to Uke when throwing him often inhibits you. I'm not sure whether it's the friction or the hit detection, but throws are often easier when there's some space in the air between you and Uke. Just one of the notable differences in Toribash from real life throwing.
Final points in next post-this one is too long
Getting Started
Throws are extremely fun to do almost no matter what the rules are. The only thing I'd emphatically suggest is to play with dismemberments OFF. It takes away from the realism big time. Other than that, disqualifications on or off, fractures on or off, dojo size, etc. are all up to you.
1. Use Of A Mod
Some people consider using mods cheating, and so will only play in the classic environment. True, mods sometimes do make it easier, but not so with realism. The physics and gravity in the classic mod simply are not conducive to real-looking throws. It's far too easy to pick Uke up in classic, and much too hard to slam him with any power. Because of this, I'd recommend using sambo mod (my personal choice) or capoeira mod. Both have increased gravity which feels more realistic, but capoeira gives you increased strength to compensate. Sambo's strength is the same as classic Toribash, so you might be a little weaker than you're used to with the high gravity. Capoeria on the other hand beefs up leg strength big time, but upper body is even weaker than normal. It comes down to personal preference which one you use, try them both out! Both mods are included as attachments to this post.
2. Determine Your Style
Figuring out what you want to create is the first step to making a good throw. Having an extremely precise mental image of what you want to create is often a bad thing, but knowing what principles of movement you want to follow will help you succeed. I tend to categorize the throws I do in Toribash into either Judo or Wrestling (obviously there are more categories than this, but these are the general ones).
Judo throws or sweeps mainly involve circular motions both in the technique and how the throw looks, and use Uke's weight to throw him instead of relying on your character's strength. Sacrifice throws are a prime example of this, putting yourself at a disadvantage momentum-wise by leaning back, in order to lower your center of gravity and use your lower fulcrum point to flip Uke over in a circular motion.
Wrestling throws on the other hand, usually involve a brute strength pickup and are more focused on lifting Uke high in order to combine your character's strength and gravity to cause damage on the slam. Suplexes are a good example of this principle, getting a lock on Uke's body to prevent resistance, lowering the center of gravity and using the legs and arms to lift up, and then slamming Uke with the combined forces of your character's body weight, strength, and the pull of gravity.
Although these two styles are not mutually exclusive, they do end up producing distinctly different-looking throws.
Principles of Throwing
1. Center of Gravity
You'll notice that in the explanations above of both a typical Judo and Wrestling throw, lowering your center of gravity below Uke's was a key point to a good throw. Although in classic Toribash a single arm is enough to lift Uke, it's much harder to get a good pickup in sambo or capoeira mod. The key to this, which leads into the second point, is to lower your center of gravity below Uke's by contracting knees/hips/abs or any other joint you can find that works.
2. Use Your Whole Body
Whether you're trying to perform a jumping piledriver or a simple leg trip, it's important to use your whole body. Lifting Uke up is much easier when you extend your knees and ankles from a contracted state rather than simply grabbing on, raising your shoulders, and hoping for the best (more on this in point #4). Likewise, if you're trying to do a foot sweep, you'll be much more likely to sweep Uke's leg or legs out from under him if you pull his upper body towards the direction of your foot sweep to disrupt his balance. In addition to adding legs to arm lifts and vice versa, just as in striking, adding ab movement, chest rotation, even wrist contractions/extensions can add a surprising amount of power to any one move.
3.A. (Judo) Using Push-Pull
Because Judo motions are circular, you generally need to have opposing motions when doing a Judo throw. As illustrated below:
Here's the start of a throw after the setup that I call Judo Wheel. Notice the right arm raised and extended, left arm lowered and contracted.
Nearly the same picture, but with both pecs extended to further pull Uke off balance (Principle #2).
Now I start to rotate Uke using a push-off with my leg in conjunction with chest rotation (Principle #2).
Here's where the push-pull starts. After setting up the motion by starting in the opposite position, I start to pull down and contract with the right arm while raising the left arm and contracting left pecs. This while continuing to push off with the legs and rotate the chest.
This shows how effective the push-pull can be. In just 20 frames/2 turns, by pulling down and in with the right arm and pushing up and out (extending) with the left arm, I have completely inverted Uke and put him head down on the mat.
Ending with a slam outside of the ring area.
3.B. Wrestling The Proper Pick-Up
Because Uke is basically a scarecrow, where exactly you grab him matters less than you might think in terms of the lift. As long as it's on the body between the elbows, knees, and neck, you'll most likely be able to pick Uke up. Your grab position might have an impact on the actual slam, but that will depend on what kind of throw you're doing. In any case, once you've grabbed onto Uke (2-handed grab is best for wrestling style), this is a simple and effective pickup.
Starting by lowering my center of gravity below Uke's and grabbing under the arms.
Starting the lift by extending hips and abs, and contracting arms to pull him off balance.
Once he's off balance, I continue extending hips and start the key part of the lift: The combination of contracting elbows, extending pecs, lowering shoulders, and extending wrists. As mentioned near the beginning of this section, the wrist extension adds a surprising amount of extra power.
Continuing the motion from the picture above and adding ankle extension, Uke continues to lift off his feet.
Uke is now off the ground, and completely under my control, as I arch backwards for the suplex.
You can guess what happens next.
4. Reverse Intuition
Maybe I'm just stupid, but lowering the shoulders and contracting the elbows didn't first occur to me as an effective way to lift Uke. Getting the throw you want in Toribash is often counter-intuitive, in that a certain motion often doesn't produce the effect you thought it would. For example, say you start with the noob opener: Grabby hands, clap together. Now you're grabbing Uke's arms between the elbow and shoulder. What will happen if you then rotate your chest to the right?
If you guessed that you'd stay still and Uke would be pulled to the right, congratulations, you're just as stupid as I am! If you thought Uke would stay stationary and you would turn to the right, you're smarter...but still half wrong. In fact, if you grab onto Uke and just rotate your chest, your lower body will turn in the opposite direction your chest is turning. The effect of any one movement while you're holding onto Uke is very different than when you do it unencumbered. It makes sense once you get it, but it takes some getting used to to realize that raising your shoulder will pull both Uke and you forward and down, while lowering a shoulder will lift up Uke and cause you to lean back. Until you're used to it, the solution is often to do the exact opposite of what you think you should do next. The most important point is that even when you're used to it, hitting "b" on your keyboard will will let see both ghosts and their interaction with each other, and this will cut down on your mistakes drastically.
5. Distance During Throws
This is a minor point, but still an important once. If you've ever seen a real-life suplex for example, you'll notice the suplex-er has to be almost body-to-body with the suplex-ee in order for it to work. This is not the case in Toribash. In fact, being that close to Uke when throwing him often inhibits you. I'm not sure whether it's the friction or the hit detection, but throws are often easier when there's some space in the air between you and Uke. Just one of the notable differences in Toribash from real life throwing.
Final points in next post-this one is too long
Last edited by gioff; Nov 30, 2007 at 05:40 AM.
Reason: Added Attachments, Fixed Sambo Mistake
Apologies for the double post: The first one above was too long to include this one in it.
Final Points
1. Moving Uke
As with most replays, in general moving Uke is a no-no. There are some exceptions with throwing, however. When you're doing a self-vs.-self grappling match, moving Uke is obviously ok. These replays can often be very exciting and help you understand how to use Uke's body weight and momentum for throws. Relaxing/holding is also something to be considered. During the initial lift/sweep off the ground, Uke should be left alone. Once in the air, however, Uke's scarecrow-like pose looks very static and unnatural and can often ruin a good throw by having an arm touch the ground before a slam or the like. In these instances, I consider it ok to relax/hold all as you see fit to make Uke look more natural when flying through the air...so long as it doesn't make the throw or slam easier
Releasing Uke's grip if you have him grabbing is a gray area too. Technically it counts as moving Uke, but in real life, a strong enough jerk or pull can break a grip. This is impossible to do in Toribash, so you could argue that releasing Uke's grip is realistic under some circumstances.
2. Inspiration
Being a martial arts geek myself, I often look for youtube videos, MMA events, movies, etc. for inspiration to try and imitate cool-looking throws. Finding inspiration has its limits however. When your ideas feel stale and repetitive, the best things to do (other than looking at real-life sources of inspiration) are to A: Do something completely crazy and see what you can do with it, realistic or not. You might come up with a good idea! or B. Take a break, either from doing throws, realistic replays, or from Toribash altogether. I find my creativity and imagination tend to regenerate after about a week's break
3. Setting The High Score
Despite the heavier gravity of capoeira and sambo mods, slams still won't get you very much damage-and therefore very little in the way of points. You character and Uke still just fall too slowly. Unless you slam Uke on his head or an exposed limb (which is a great idea, but not always possible), the point of a realistic throw should usually be to disqualify or just to look cool. Don't bother yourself about the points, you won't get them.
So that's my realistic throwing FAQ. I'm sure I missed some points I wanted to hit, but this is already nearly a full forum page on its own, so I'll stop here. I have plenty of replays and screenshots to use for examples of unclear points I talked about or missed, and I'd be glad to expand on this/answer any questions people may have. Happy throwing!
EDIT: For an extra challenge, try my Lei Tai mod that I tweaked from Jam's awesome "slam" mod below. Gravity is set very high, twice regular Toribash and 1.6 sambo with no extra strength. This means body mechanics are a must, and wrestling style throws are near impossible. Sacrifice throws are good practice here though, hitting the ground causes much more damage, and throwing Uke off the platform is quite satisfying. Set it at 120 engage height and disquals on.
Final Points
1. Moving Uke
As with most replays, in general moving Uke is a no-no. There are some exceptions with throwing, however. When you're doing a self-vs.-self grappling match, moving Uke is obviously ok. These replays can often be very exciting and help you understand how to use Uke's body weight and momentum for throws. Relaxing/holding is also something to be considered. During the initial lift/sweep off the ground, Uke should be left alone. Once in the air, however, Uke's scarecrow-like pose looks very static and unnatural and can often ruin a good throw by having an arm touch the ground before a slam or the like. In these instances, I consider it ok to relax/hold all as you see fit to make Uke look more natural when flying through the air...so long as it doesn't make the throw or slam easier
Releasing Uke's grip if you have him grabbing is a gray area too. Technically it counts as moving Uke, but in real life, a strong enough jerk or pull can break a grip. This is impossible to do in Toribash, so you could argue that releasing Uke's grip is realistic under some circumstances.2. Inspiration
Being a martial arts geek myself, I often look for youtube videos, MMA events, movies, etc. for inspiration to try and imitate cool-looking throws. Finding inspiration has its limits however. When your ideas feel stale and repetitive, the best things to do (other than looking at real-life sources of inspiration) are to A: Do something completely crazy and see what you can do with it, realistic or not. You might come up with a good idea! or B. Take a break, either from doing throws, realistic replays, or from Toribash altogether. I find my creativity and imagination tend to regenerate after about a week's break
3. Setting The High Score
Despite the heavier gravity of capoeira and sambo mods, slams still won't get you very much damage-and therefore very little in the way of points. You character and Uke still just fall too slowly. Unless you slam Uke on his head or an exposed limb (which is a great idea, but not always possible), the point of a realistic throw should usually be to disqualify or just to look cool. Don't bother yourself about the points, you won't get them.
So that's my realistic throwing FAQ. I'm sure I missed some points I wanted to hit, but this is already nearly a full forum page on its own, so I'll stop here. I have plenty of replays and screenshots to use for examples of unclear points I talked about or missed, and I'd be glad to expand on this/answer any questions people may have. Happy throwing!
EDIT: For an extra challenge, try my Lei Tai mod that I tweaked from Jam's awesome "slam" mod below. Gravity is set very high, twice regular Toribash and 1.6 sambo with no extra strength. This means body mechanics are a must, and wrestling style throws are near impossible. Sacrifice throws are good practice here though, hitting the ground causes much more damage, and throwing Uke off the platform is quite satisfying. Set it at 120 engage height and disquals on.
Last edited by gioff; Nov 30, 2007 at 05:39 AM.
Reason: Stated
wow, awesome tutorial... +rep...
One thing tho, sambo doesn't have any extra strength =p
One thing tho, sambo doesn't have any extra strength =p
Really? I just sorta figured sambo had extra strength to make up for the increased gravity...guess not (EDIT: fixed in the guide).
Thanks for the rep
Thanks for the rep
Last edited by gioff; Nov 30, 2007 at 09:55 AM.
Reason: Stated
