Weekend Bash
Original Post
New ELO System
The old post didn't have a direction, so I updated the post with some sample calculations at the bottom.

Old Post


I wanted to suggest that victories against opponents of the same tier should give the players the most points towards leveling up, whereas defeating players who are different ranks should decrease the reward earned substantially for each rank distant the player is.


This is because I lost against a low rank player and I had to win at least 5 games just to gain back what I've lost.

Let me show a few examples instead; Not FULLY thought of, but just an example.

Equal Tier Point Calculations
Going against players of the same tier
- Gold 2 winning against Gold 2 : +1.9 ELO
- Gold 2 losing against Gold 2: -1.7 ELO




+1 / -1 Tier Point Calculations
Going against players + 1 tier away from you
- Gold 2 winning against Gold 1 : +1.2 ELO
- Gold 2 losing against Gold 1: -0.85 ELO



Going against players - 1 tier away from you
- Gold 2 winning against Gold 3 : +1.1 ELO
- Gold 2 losing against Gold 3: -1.2 ELO



+2 / -2 Tier Point Calculations
Going against players +2 tiers away from you
- Gold 2 winning against Platinum 3 : +0.55 ELO
- Gold 2 losing against Platinum 3: -0.35 ELO



Going against players -2 tiers away from you
- Gold 2 winning against Silver 1 : +0.4 ELO
- Gold 2 losing against Silver 1: -0.6 ELO


+3 and above / -3 and below Tier Point Calculations
Going against players +3 tiers away from you
- Gold 2 winning against Platinum 2 : +0.08 ELO
- Gold 2 losing against Platinum 2: -0.04 ELO



Going against players -3 tiers away from you
- Gold 2 winning against Silver 2 : +0.05 ELO
- Gold 2 losing against Silver 2: -0.09 ELO
Last edited by Karstnator; Mar 14, 2022 at 10:26 PM.

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Toribash Season 1 Rank 3 | Ex-ES Artist | Ex-Mascot of [Alpha]
CLAN LEAGUE 2019 WINNER
i support this, i have to tryhard agains't random people in order to mantain my elo. which most of the time is more losing than winning, considering i have to win like 5 matches agains't randoms and if i lose once those 5 matches were for nothing.
Originally Posted by Karstnator View Post
ELO is pretty broken right now
I'm losing at least 1 ELO every loss and gaining .5 ELO every win

I suggest gaining/losing MORE ELO against players within the same tier/rank rangeAnd gaining/losing LESS ELO against players out of your tier/rank range

If ELO Hell Tier wins against Diamond Tier, it wouldn't knock the Diamond players back by 3+ ELO

Dunno about your exact number of 3 but i'll just treat it as a random pick and reply to the logic of the post instead

ELO is meant to be a way to find an accurate representation of skill compared to the rest of the ranked playerbase.

If you lose, as a Diamond player, to an Elo Hell player you'll lose a hell of a lot more than you would to a Gold or Platinum player. Obviously.

Gaining more elo for beating people above you is so the ranking system can push you upwards through the ranks so you can get to your 'natural' ranking faster.
As such, the same logic must be applied in the reverse situation, if you lose to a very low ranked player while in a very high rank, the system lowers you based on that result so you can find said 'natural' ranking.

Making you lose less points when you lose a match, while increasing the points you gain when you win a match makes no sense. You'd be able to maintain a high rank, or even increase your rank by playing players that are nowhere near your current ranking.

Which means, if you want a ranking that is fair and accurate in regards to which player is the top of the season by the end.
I don't think you'd be pleased if someone that farmed bronze and silver all 6 months beat you. But the logic you've put forward would allow that.
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ELO is a system that existed before toribash. ELO Is not broken, it just doesn't work like MMR or Glicko-2. ELO is used commonly in chess to rank players and is mostly accurate.
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Originally Posted by Icky View Post
Making you lose less points when you lose a match, while increasing the points you gain when you win a match makes no sense. You'd be able to maintain a high rank, or even increase your rank by playing players that are nowhere near your current ranking.

The problem is that the ELO gain/loss negatively affects high ELO players. I lost more than 2 ELO in one game against someone low ranked due to a random wrist DM. To gain it back, I had to win AT LEAST 5 games. Imagine Diamond ranked players if they lost against ELO Hell due to a random dm. I'm not sure how much ELO a Diamond ranked player would lose against ELO Hell rank, but it would take them multiple wins just to gain it back.

I wanted to suggest that victories against opponents of the same tier should give the players the most points towards leveling up, whereas defeating players who are different ranks should decrease the reward earned substantially for each rank distant the player is.

Let me show a few examples instead; Not fully thought of, but just an example.

Equal Tier Point Calculations
Going against players of the same tier
- Gold 2 winning against Gold 2 : +1.9 ELO
- Gold 2 losing against Gold 2: -1.7 ELO




+1 / -1 Tier Point Calculations
Going against players + 1 tier away from you
- Gold 2 winning against Gold 1 : +1.2 ELO
- Gold 2 losing against Gold 1: -0.85 ELO



Going against players - 1 tier away from you
- Gold 2 winning against Gold 3 : +1.1 ELO
- Gold 2 losing against Gold 3: -1.2 ELO



+2 / -2 Tier Point Calculations
Going against players +2 tiers away from you
- Gold 2 winning against Platinum 3 : +0.55 ELO
- Gold 2 losing against Platinum 3: -0.35 ELO



Going against players -2 tiers away from you
- Gold 2 winning against Silver 1 : +0.4 ELO
- Gold 2 losing against Silver 1: -0.6 ELO


+3 and above / -3 and below Tier Point Calculations
Going against players +3 tiers away from you
- Gold 2 winning against Platinum 2 : +0.08 ELO
- Gold 2 losing against Platinum 2: -0.04 ELO



Going against players -3 tiers away from you
- Gold 2 winning against Silver 2 : +0.05 ELO
- Gold 2 losing against Silver 2: -0.09 ELO



Let me update the first post real quick
Last edited by Karstnator; Mar 14, 2022 at 10:22 PM.

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Toribash Season 1 Rank 3 | Ex-ES Artist | Ex-Mascot of [Alpha]
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Originally Posted by Karstnator View Post
The problem is that the ELO gain/loss negatively affects high ELO players. I lost more than 2 ELO in one game against someone low ranked due to a random wrist DM. To gain it back, I had to win AT LEAST 5 games.

Yes, thats because the difference between your rank and the lower ranked person is so huge. In trying to find the average rank you should be at, the system has to make do with the information it has. If your average win rate against low ranks is something like 99:1 (99 wins to 1 lost) then of course that one loss is going to make a big difference to your average. Especially when it comes at the hands of someone who might only be at a 10:8 win rate against their own rank.

As for gaining it back, yeah that makes sense too. Depending who you play. Your rank is super high, even with that drop. There aren't many people above you, so unless you farm the one or two people above you then the elo you get won't get you a net 0 loss particularly quickly. Because even though you lost a whole 2 Elo, you still have a couple thousand Elo and a super high rank. So the system has to keep it within reasonable bounds of progression and attempt to still keep accurately tracing your ranking.

Originally Posted by Karstnator View Post
Imagine Diamond ranked players if they lost against ELO Hell due to a random dm. I'm not sure how much ELO a Diamond ranked player would lose against ELO Hell rank, but it would take them multiple wins just to gain it back.

Yeah it can happen, and probably will sometimes either by luck or lazy playing. And if the Diamond player is already at the top then absolutely they'll lose a fair bit. The amount they lose depends on the information the system has, and that only changes the more other people play and get ranking via winning/losing elo. What could be a 2 Elo drop this early in the season, could only be a 1.2 drop later on.

Losing against a person the ranking says you should beat will always give you a bigger elo loss than winning against that same person. Because losing is outside of what the ranking says is the expected result. Unexpected results require bigger corrections. It's a well known system and your desire to find less impactful Elo losses just breaks the system completely. Farming would become astronomically easy if your methods were used.

Originally Posted by Karstnator View Post
I wanted to suggest that victories against opponents of the same tier should give the players the most points towards leveling up, whereas defeating players who are different ranks should decrease the reward earned substantially for each rank distant the player is.

Your second bit of the post is already in action and is normally the case. Beating people a rank lower than you will always give you less points than beating someone on the same rank as you.

Winning against someone on the same rank of you depends on the finer details. If you're rank 3 and they're rank 4, you'll get less points if you beat them, they would get slightly more if they beat you. This is obvious because if they beat you consistently then the system has to believe they should be rank 3 instead of you.
If you were to beat them consistently, then the ranking doesn't change* because the system has already got you in rank 3, above them.


The difference between individual ranks is down to the players themselves really. The more often rank 2 beats ranks 3, 4, and 5 will put distance between rank 2 and the rest. If rank 1 suddenly loses to rank 3, then the distance between ranks 1 and 2 will change, but also the distance between 2 and 3. Because 3 would have made a substantial gain by beating rank 1.

The names in the ranked places might not change because of the distance between 2 and 3, but the lessening will still occur.

To be honest, your post reads like you're a bit unaware of how the process works and how it's meant to represent things.
That could be a case of a lack of understanding, or perhaps just viewing what is still the very new season rankings in a light of a system that would been a lot older and more solidified in its rankings, with a reasonable distance between said ranks already established due to something similar to the 'law of averages'.



*excluding some very specific situations where rank decay of rank 2 might be involved
Addicted-re 07-16
Custom Profile Shop
24/07/2019. I'll find you again my friend.
Replay thread thing
Have any reports or issues?

a boston cream pie is when u let an irish catholic nut in u raw
she got braces and i be nuttin, my kids behind bars already, im an awful father
impregnate the closest horse to double the horsepower it contains
Originally Posted by Icky View Post
To be honest, your post reads like you're a bit unaware of how the process works and how it's meant to represent things.
That could be a case of a lack of understanding, or perhaps just viewing what is still the very new season rankings in a light of a system that would been a lot older and more solidified in its rankings, with a reasonable distance between said ranks already established due to something similar to the 'law of averages'.

I would totally agree with you IF, you didn't miss our point of view since you are not a competitive player like us, or in the absence thereof, a player that doesn't spend much time ingame.

It is not fair and it is frustrating to me to play a considerable amount of time a few matches to gain ELO bit by bit, playing with people that have LESS rank than me (considering theres not that many platinum players at the time) and lose it against a random with a silver rank by some DM, or something else.

I feel like the ELO is not a measurement of how good or bad player is in terms of skill, but a measurement of how many time he has spent grinding in the ranked lobbies.

Plus something that came into my mind is, there are skillful players that just could get into an alt and start playing/trolling against people like me or Karstnator making us tryhard even more, becoming more frustrating. and before you say, Thats what the belt restriction for, just win against those people and thats it. it is tiring already grind 10/15 matches, and those alts make our work even more tiring. and playing to know if someone is an alt or not is unpredictable. Same for the matches against the people (mentioning again the point of a lucky DM or another random factor in the match that makes me lose in a ridiculous way)
Last edited by BOOST; Mar 15, 2022 at 02:24 PM. Reason: Corrections
I just find it funny how I have to tryhard all the time against randoms or else I lose more than 2 Elo cuz I have to win 6 OR MORE consecutive games to get it back cause at some point, I gained .34 Elo.


The thing I suggested rewards players who fight against opponents of the same tier. It shows that you lose once to someone, you only have to win twice against them to get even.


I saw a player who lost 24 Elo and I think it'll take him more than 48 consecutive wins to get back.


I recently saw a player who had a streak of 6 or 7 in a server and was at 1665.15 Elo... he lost ONCE and is now at 1663 Elo.
Last edited by Karstnator; Mar 15, 2022 at 02:26 PM.

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Toribash Season 1 Rank 3 | Ex-ES Artist | Ex-Mascot of [Alpha]
CLAN LEAGUE 2019 WINNER
Originally Posted by Empress View Post
I would totally agree with you IF, you didn't miss our point of view since you are not a competitive player like us, or in the absence thereof, a player that doesn't spend much time ingame.

It is not fair and it is frustrating to me to play a considerable amount of time a few matches to gain ELO bit by bit, playing with people that have LESS rank than me (considering theres not that many platinum players at the time) and lose it against a random with a silver rank by some DM, or something else.

I feel like the ELO is not a measurement of how good or bad player is in terms of skill, but a measurement of how many time he has spent grinding in the ranked lobbies.

Plus something that came into my mind is, there are skillful players that just could get into an alt and start playing/trolling against people like me or Karstnator making us tryhard even more, becoming more frustrating. and before you say, Thats what the belt restriction for, just win against those people and thats it. it is tiring already grind 10/15 matches, and those alts make our work even more tiring. and playing to know if someone is an alt or not is unpredictable. Same for the matches against the people (mentioning again the point of a lucky DM or another random factor in the match that makes me lose in a ridiculous way)

I don't need to be a current competitive player to understand how a ranking system works.

Also, for what it's worth we can make a server with a min elo of platinum so you can technically get your wish. I don't know how much benefit it will bring in the short term and I'd probably only think it should be brought in maybe midway through the season but that's ancients call.

As for the "there are skillful players that just could get into an alt and start playing/trolling against people like me or Karstnator making us tryhard even more, becoming more frustrating" bit. I don't see how belt restriction is relevant to that so it wouldn't be my response.
My response would actually be "if you're ranked higher than them on their main, you should be able to beat them while they're on an alt."

If you're losing to them just because they're on an alt, then I'd suggest maybe you're underestimating someone just because their qi is low, which is a mistake you'll have to address yourself rather than think it's a fault with the system.

If, however there are in fact people using alts that are good enough to be ranked along side the top players going around to be destructive and poisonous to the ranking system, we can just deal with them with elo resets and/or bans.
But we'll need actual proof of that, rather than a post about it happening with no specific references.
Addicted-re 07-16
Custom Profile Shop
24/07/2019. I'll find you again my friend.
Replay thread thing
Have any reports or issues?

a boston cream pie is when u let an irish catholic nut in u raw
she got braces and i be nuttin, my kids behind bars already, im an awful father
impregnate the closest horse to double the horsepower it contains
After having read everything here, I've decided that in a couple of weeks time, I'll be adding a plat+ room, once more people are plat, and we'll go from there.
pm me your questions or applications

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