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Old Sep 9, 2017   #21
hipotibor
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Originally Posted by Cassh View Post
i cant believe some of you said its not okay to hit anyone. you guys understand the concept of a deterrent? the black panthers did.

Actions in real life have consequences. Are you just being edgy or are you really that retarded that you don't understand why it's unacceptable to hit people for no valid reason? And no, their views not aligning with yours is not a valid reason. Assault is a crime and it'll get you a criminal record and even jail time in some cases. That can have major consequences on your ability to find a job in the future, since most places don't hire people with criminal records, thus ruining your life. But it seems the concept of being an adult is something foreign to you since you are an angsty teen living with his parents and you aren't pulling your own weight in society. Also, don't act all high and mighty like you are some sort of street fighting god. I'm sure you are a stranger to physical confrontation and 95% of the people in this thread will drop your skinny white american ass in an instant, otherwise you wouldn't be spouting such nonsense.

Back to "nazis". Ignore it and it will go away. Don't participate in rallies held by either side, antifa or the alt-right. Go to work, be productive, and let the proper authorities handle the problems that arise from the conflict between these two ideologies.
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Old Sep 9, 2017   #22
Unicorn
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Originally Posted by hipotibor View Post
Back to "nazis". Ignore it and it will go away. Don't participate in rallies held by either side, antifa or the alt-right. Go to work, be productive, and let the proper authorities handle the problems that arise from the conflict between these two ideologies.


well, are you really sure that it will "go away"?

those 2 sides have been around since the 2. WW more or less but its always been there and it will always be there.
there are for sure other groups which fight over "similiar" stuff but those are less vocal have less members and thus are less noticed, but there will always be fights around left-right sides. it certainly wont just disappear from one day to another and the authorities youre talking about can only do so much, not all of them are stupid, means some of them actually handle within the law to not get in trouble, but still voice their opinion. resulting, as long there are enough dumb people who believe that they actually have to fight for their opinion/side it wont end.
i mean, after all those people go to schools and recruit people there with, music, clothing and their family-esque style etc. etc. etc.

violence wont solve it, but neither will ignoring do.

Originally Posted by MrJingles View Post
@blub: considering you're actually from Germany, I find it peculiar how easily you throw around the word nazi. The more people throw around the word nazi, the less value it holds. Calling someone a nazi just because they may or may not share a single aspect (prejudice towards other races) with the party does not necessarily mean they support Hitler and a passion for German nationalism, both key aspects of Nazism.

fair point, althought the word nowadays is more used as a generalisation, there are right side supporters who arent "nazis" (infact, closer relatives of mine are like that, i wouldnt call them a nazi because they arent, but they sympathizise with them sorta) but those are, somewhat outnumbered.
tho you could substitute the word nazi in my post with fascist, which would probably be more fitting.

also, to the rest of your post, i understand why people have.. i would like to call it fear towards those people, its escpecially crucial due to the refugee crisis we have around here, people tend more and more towards right sided parties because they want to activley work AGAINST them and because people have an actual fear of those people they will start supporting them, disregarding the other stuff those parties will also do. (somewhat fits to what i wrote above aswell.)

i wanted to say more but i kinda got distracted.. ill let it sit as this for now.~
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Old Sep 9, 2017   #23
MrJingles
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Originally Posted by BlubKill View Post


fair point, althought the word nowadays is more used as a generalisation, there are right side supporters who arent "nazis" (infact, closer relatives of mine are like that, i wouldnt call them a nazi because they arent, but they sympathizise with them sorta) but those are, somewhat outnumbered.
tho you could substitute the word nazi in my post with fascist, which would probably be more fitting.

also, to the rest of your post, i understand why people have.. i would like to call it fear towards those people, its escpecially crucial due to the refugee crisis we have around here, people tend more and more towards right sided parties because they want to activley work AGAINST them and because people have an actual fear of those people they will start supporting them, disregarding the other stuff those parties will also do. (somewhat fits to what i wrote above aswell.)

i wanted to say more but i kinda got distracted.. ill let it sit as this for now.~

The problem with changing the definition of such words that invoke such a strong negative emotion is that their definition can be molded and shaped to fit a person's agenda while retaining the same negative meaning, eventually losing power the more its echoed as I mentioned in my previous post. We should not forget what an actual nazi is, and realize a 'modern nazi' is nowhere near the original. Its akin to how feminists have tried to change the definition of 'rape' to fit their discussions. As one can see after their changing of the definition, they now believe in things like "stare-rape", and rape without anyone actually touching them, and worst of all they turned actual rape into a mockery as the word no longer holds the intense meaning it once had. While altering definitions may seem to be harmless, it can be extremely dangerous with original definitions being lost.

A lot of people in the world right now, on both sides of the spectrum, are in a rut whether financially, emotionally, whatever. Many are dissatisfied with their government and feel they need to 'step up' since they feel no one else can. While its a commendable thought process, its very much like the whole "depressed Germany putting their beliefs in Hitler for a better tomorrow", in the fact that there are now two figures of power (left and right wing). The two extreme sides of the spectrum are expressing that should people follow their respective ideology, and not allow the other side to propagate, then the world will be a better place. Again abusing the fact that when people are backed into a corner, they will latch onto something that they feel can better their own lives. Again, the Milgram experiments clearly display this trait in humanity.

Far left wingers are led to believe that the right are nazi scumbags who are white nationalist slave owners who don't care for people of colour, while the far right are led to believe that the left are no job bat-wielding hippies. While some people on both sides may fit the description its important to understand that the news sensationalizes everything to get you riled up. The world needs to understand that both sides are trying to change the world for the better (with their own ideologies), that we can agree on, but its the misinformation being spread and the charismatic people playing the 'pied piper' who are at the core of the problem.
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Last edited by MrJingles; Sep 9, 2017 at 02:50 PM..
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Old Sep 9, 2017   #24
Oracle
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Originally Posted by Moonshake View Post
the issue isn't about those 5 things obviously, the issue that it's less than half of the article. also yes it's obviously overgeneralization, but labeling it as "strong conservative values" is a fluke. the religious right is not really a thing anymore (and if it existed, god forbid it'd be anywhere in canada), no person who is truly right-wing can miss the mark this badly when it comes to identifying someone who is more extreme than them

Conservative values =/= religious right. Calgary is conservative due to them being in a relatively isolated province (the Great Plains provinces are basically entirely rural with maybe 4 major urban hubs, Calgary included, in all 3 of them combined). Alberta's entire population (the province Calgary is in) is half the size of the Greater Toronto Area's population, despite taking up around 1000 times more area. Their values change slowly due to the lack of proximity with others, which causes their values to evolve slowly, if at all. That's basically the textbook definition of a conservative.

Ignoring the fact that the religious right are most certainly still a thing, saying that "no person who is truly right wing..." is a no true Scotsman fallacy. People miss the mark in identifying people all the time, and right-wing people are no exception.

Also, you post the list, but conveniently ignore the fact that they say at the very top of their article:

"The early warning signs we publish online are supported by academic research and our experience with these groups in Calgary. For example, this article from the Intelligence Report and this article in The Sociological Quarterly​ both support that heavy, violent music is often part of the culture of the hate groups we see in Calgary. While heavier genres of music are not the only types of hate music used by these groups, it is the most popular by far.
Each warning sign needs to be considered in context with other warning signs and the child in question. They are not, in and of themselves, something to worry about. Many teenagers change their appearance, push boundaries, listen to heavy music and lose interest in school – which is perfectly normal.
However, if all these things start happening at once, are a change for the child, and include other signs of a child adopting troubling views, then parents should investigate the reasons behind the changes.
In most cases, the changes are normal teenage behaviour. But, these signs can in rare cases also indicate there is something more serious going on, which why it is worthwhile for parents to consider these signs."

It's pretty clear you're trying to push an angle that people are overreacting to the alt-right, but your material doesn't support it. The police department clearly states they don't believe every teenager is a fascist because of these points. In fact, not only was this article posted several years before the antifa and alt-right rose into prominence, but it was released to deal with a regional problem of radicalization that was occurring in the city at the time. So this article really has no place in your argumentation. If anything, it disproves your no true Scotsman statement, since apparently you, as a right-leaning individual, can't identify somebody more extreme than you.
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Old Sep 9, 2017   #25
Cassh
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Okay heres the thing guys, i can only speak on what i know and what i've experience and how i live, so i do. Your not undermining me in any way by saying violence isnt the answer when my argument was pacifism isnt the answer, you are literally regurgitating a statement, its nice that it looks like you understood what i said, by typing a revision of what i said to you but it really doesnt fucking contribute nore did you interpenetrate as i intended.

Okay lets drop social oppinions, ie that guys a retard, that guys feeling x, or has x life.

A child, would instigate a fight with a racist (bopers to teens) if the racist performs a racist action, and the youth is reinforced by thier friends - inside a school environment the youth would speak up. ive seen it every example i give, ive seen.

Now the same situation, lets say downtown - shit now the kid thinks "hey, crazy people live downtown, maby i should be silent" So they let the abuse happen and then they go to the abused vict and comfort them - or make a verbal proclamation "what a dick" etc to differentiate that dude, from you. Why do you need that differentiation if you actually didnt do anything wrong? Its because if a wolf attacks you and there are other wolf by, even if they arnt in the pack, its a fucking wolf, just like the wolf that attacked you. ik its a weak point but god there were some weak counter arguments.

Same situation no friends, night time, hurrassment you look, and you tell yourself you'll do something if shit happens, but honestly if it does your either going to call the cops and keep going or your gunna be that un-naturally white dude running over saying "staaahp"

take what i say literally, i asked you, to function as a young adult as an adult as a child, with the power of god, that was my statment the power to change anything around you, and i literally mean anything as you have the power to abuse other gods, and even kill them thats what they promote, when you can combat the embodiment of anything why dont you, your that guy if you do. dont you wanna hear that? dont you actually want to be that? idk.

Racist as a whole are a social issue, In seattle we have bars, ive seen 2 in my life that are neo-bars and its scary, it doesnt make me feel scared, it makes really angry i guess its hard to explain but its scary in this blank voidy feeling theres just nothing there and i know i should feel something for a stranger, usually awkward tension, we share a joke something but with them, its nothing because ive experienced the names ive experienced hitting someone whos made racist remarks (not necessarily a racist) and ive experienced doing nothing.

my statment last night was to encourage you to be manly, to see your own flaws and to stop being fucking insecure about them if you cant, you might need to be defended by someone else - that doesnt make you less of a person you might hit someone it doesnt make it wrong if your christian, -snip- your an instrument of god, if your a jew idt you guys even believe in that (sorce: bf is) if your an athiest like i said, your basically the inception of god(s) and you can act in a manner that effects everyone, if your a roman catholic then yes, maby hitting someone is a sin - say a hail mary and dont do it in the name of the lord, if your worried about being prosecuted not persecuted by the state - good thats the point, so that we dont kill each other even though we know how to live together.

I am not the police department, nore do i watch news, nore do i care about online advertisment on issues, like getting my oppinion from facebook, or youtube, youtube being a real fucking problem this day and age, no one has an oppinion that isnt acceptable by youtubes standards anymore, and if you do your suddenly some fucking 4chan kid to the rest of the internet.


anyone who responded to the 140p line is obv a pussy it was a hyperbole to encourage, not an excuse to be violent for no reason. your argument is so fucking moot that depending on the response on this one, i might just leave some psuedo intellectuals to be politically correct on the toribash forms by themselfs.

im just saying ik you guys are younger than me, or older than me, there is no click in what either of us are saying to each other, and it sucks and is prob one of the issues too.
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Last edited by Lite; Sep 10, 2017 at 06:50 PM..
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Old Sep 10, 2017   #26
Oracle
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Originally Posted by Cassh View Post
im just saying ik you guys are younger than me, or older than me, there is no click in what either of us are saying to each other, and it sucks and is prob one of the issues too.

It would probably help if your posts had some more structure to them. I'm spending more time trying to decipher what you're trying to say than thinking up replies.
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Old Sep 10, 2017   #27
+Ele
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Yeah.. Cassh, could you sum up the point you want to make in one or two sentences, please?

"I think we should be able to punch Nazis because x and y.."

If we know clearly what you're saying then we can respond with something relevant to to your points.
-----
I can attempt a translation, Oracle.. (I had some spare time)
Originally Posted by Cassh View Post
Okay heres the thing guys, i can only speak on what i know and what i've experience and how i live, so i do. Your not undermining me in any way by saying violence isnt the answer when my argument was pacifism isnt the answer, you are literally regurgitating a statement, its nice that it looks like you understood what i said, by typing a revision of what i said to you but it really doesnt fucking contribute nore did you interpenetrate as i intended.

"You guys haven't responded to my points, you're just repeating yours. This isn't a shouting contest."

Originally Posted by Cassh View Post
Okay lets drop social oppinions, ie that guys a retard, that guys feeling x, or has x life.

A child, would instigate a fight with a racist (bopers to teens) if the racist performs a racist action, and the youth is reinforced by thier friends - inside a school environment the youth would speak up. ive seen it every example i give, ive seen.

Now the same situation, lets say downtown - shit now the kid thinks "hey, crazy people live downtown, maby i should be silent" So they let the abuse happen and then they go to the abused vict and comfort them - or make a verbal proclamation "what a dick" etc to differentiate that dude, from you. Why do you need that differentiation if you actually didnt do anything wrong? Its because if a wolf attacks you and there are other wolf by, even if they arnt in the pack, its a fucking wolf, just like the wolf that attacked you. ik its a weak point but god there were some weak counter arguments.

"Even a child knows that it's right to hit a Nazi, so why don't you? It's cus you're weak and scared of Nazis."

Originally Posted by Cassh View Post
Same situation no friends, night time, hurrassment you look, and you tell yourself you'll do something if shit happens, but honestly if it does your either going to call the cops and keep going or your gunna be that un-naturally white dude running over saying "staaahp"

take what i say literally, i asked you, to function as a young adult as an adult as a child, with the power of god, that was my statment the power to change anything around you, and i literally mean anything as you have the power to abuse other gods, and even kill them thats what they promote, when you can combat the embodiment of anything why dont you, your that guy if you do. dont you wanna hear that? dont you actually want to be that? idk.

"Humans are the new gods, we can control ideas, don't you wanna stamp out Nazism?'
Originally Posted by Cassh View Post
Racist as a whole are a social issue, In seattle we have bars, ive seen 2 in my life that are neo-bars and its scary, it doesnt make me feel scared, it makes really angry i guess its hard to explain but its scary in this blank voidy feeling theres just nothing there and i know i should feel something for a stranger, usually awkward tension, we share a joke something but with them, its nothing because ive experienced the names ive experienced hitting someone whos made racist remarks (not necessarily a racist) and ive experienced doing nothing.

"Racism upsets me".
Originally Posted by Cassh View Post
my statment last night was to encourage you to be manly, to see your own flaws and to stop being fucking insecure about them if you cant, you might need to be defended by someone else - that doesnt make you less of a person you might hit someone it doesnt make it wrong if your christian, nigga your an instrument of god, if your a jew idt you guys even believe in that (sorce: bf is) if your an athiest like i said, your basically the inception of god(s) and you can act in a manner that effects everyone, if your a roman catholic then yes, maby hitting someone is a sin - say a hail mary and dont do it in the name of the lord, if your worried about being prosecuted not persecuted by the state - good thats the point, so that we dont kill each other even though we know how to live together.

"It's not wrong to hit people because 'god'."
Originally Posted by Cassh View Post
I am not the police department, nore do i watch news, nore do i care about online advertisment on issues, like getting my oppinion from facebook, or youtube, youtube being a real fucking problem this day and age, no one has an oppinion that isnt acceptable by youtubes standards anymore, and if you do your suddenly some fucking 4chan kid to the rest of the internet.


anyone who responded to the 140p line is obv a pussy it was a hyperbole to encourage, not an excuse to be violent for no reason. your argument is so fucking moot that depending on the response on this one, i might just leave some psuedo intellectuals to be politically correct on the toribash forms by themselfs.

im just saying ik you guys are younger than me, or older than me, there is no click in what either of us are saying to each other, and it sucks and is prob one of the issues too.

'Controversial opinions like mine get laughed at because of the times we live in. Yes I was being purposely provocative with my first post, but that doesn't warrant the hostility that's been sent my way. There appears to be a communication problem here..."
Originally Posted by Cassh View Post
Add on for 5.99$ USD: Please im serious and i know you might not be comfortable but talk to me like im your friend infront of your face, ive been friends with you for a while and that we dont share views, but im still here trying because in a sense i am. i am trying to encourage you and i dont know you - to be reinforced, whatever that means to you.

"For real, not looking to fight. Just looking for civil discourse."
------
I did my best to avoid any misrepresentations in the presentation of your argument, Cassh. If I did misrepresent you, it wasn't intentional and I'm happy to be corrected.

Last edited by Ele; Sep 10, 2017 at 02:35 AM..
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Old Sep 11, 2017   #28
Cassh
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you are the homie.

i feel like we all know whats good and bad, and in black and white yes, their ideas of not doing anything are acceptable its the best you can ask for and you can dislike a situation, im just arguing that while im not in the gray i support people who are.

read what ele said, its super good super short.
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Old Sep 11, 2017   #29
MrJingles
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^ I think you're misunderstanding some of our posts (I can finally understand what you are saying because of ele, jesus christ)

Those of us who are saying that you shouldn't punch nazi's, aren't saying keep to yourself and that we should just stand by as people are getting beat on. That's a terrible assumption.

The problem like I said before, is that the definition of 'nazi' is changed so much that a nazi to me could be very different compared to what yours would be. For me, in this context, 'nazis' such as the kind used in the title are anyone from the right side of the spectrum (since this is the narrative things like cnn and most media outlets are pushing). You on the other hand, when you talk about nazi's are talking about the extremists of the right side of the political spectrum which is where your main confusion about our posts comes from. Hence why the changing definitions to fit one's agenda is nonsensical. Punching anyone who holds values of the right would be retarded and belongs in a mental institution really.

We're not saying to turn a blind eye to extremists on either side, we're saying that violence will never be a permanent solution to the problem before us in the long run. Its similar to how the more we bomb the middle east the more hatred is bred in the people of such countries for America. It makes it easier for terrorist groups to come in and tell the people they can take revenge by joining their organization and so on.
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Last edited by MrJingles; Sep 11, 2017 at 06:18 AM..
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Old Sep 12, 2017   #30
Mack
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Hi, Swedish citizen here. I thought you might be interested in my personal views on this whole antifa vs everyone they disagree with scenario. My political views are controversial according to the remaining population of this country and I have gotten some pretty harsh treatment due to this. Hell, my friend once heard a classmate talking about how he wanted to strangle me with a fishing line because of my standpoints on immigration that I consider to be quite realistic seeing as I judge by statistics before morals (which was most likely the reason why). So in short, I have been a bit of a social outcast for the last few years because of my views on several controversial subjects. I have very rarely been met with debate but rather pure ignorance and laughs (sometimes even violence but in a more threatening manner rather than an intent to harm me physically). Because of these childish and obviously insecure actions from my opposing side in debate accompanied with the actual statistics that I judge from, I am going to keep to my opinions and consider myself correct for now.

So, my views on political violence? It's wrong and you're intellectually at a disadvantage if you think it changes anything. It completely kills any reliability on your side because you are doing nothing but showing that you are too childish to debate with and convert people to your side. Instead you just prove to them that you are out of arguments and decide to try to scare the opposing side into being too afraid to speak up. Censorship in the worst form possible. However, people are smarter than that. They see right through your dumb actions and just end up seeing themselves as the correct side. And if you use violence in this manner, those people are correct.

Antifa have one main argument they turn back to as if it were a motto, and it always begins with "not all" (I see they use it to justify their own actions now too).
The problem is not you specifically, so stop defending yourself. The problem is the people actually committing these crimes. And with antifa, that number is in an obvious majority. Never in my life have I seen a peaceful antifa protest. They even provoked the police in Sweden into shooting a man who threw rocks at them during a protest in Gothenburg which hasn't happened in Sweden before then since 1931. This was in 2001 and they have only increased in numbers. I don't see them becoming any more peaceful either.

It's strange but not once have I heard about a member of the nazi oriented organisations in Sweden using violence. Actually, I probably have and I just can't think of any at the moment but my point stands that it is obviously way more frequent within the radical left. This "hit them before they hit you" mentality doesn't work on any side in my opinion. However I am sadly forced into always thinking the worst with antifa. Not as in it's ok to punch antifa, but that I have to be extra careful with my actions around them. I'm not planning to get hit in the head with a bike lock anytime soon.
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